69 South
Podcast 69 South is about mystery, true crime, attempting to find the truth in a world full of chaos. We dig deep in to current and past true crime incidents. Reporting what we find to our listeners. We want to become your reliable source for all things relevant, while we live in a society that is truly lost.
69 South
Brian and Sonja Stafford Probable Cause Affidavit: Justice for the forgotten Children Part 2
What if the very place meant to be a safe haven turns into a nightmare? Join us as we explore the chilling details of the Stafford case, where abuse and fear ran rampant. With testimonies from Victims 2 and 3, we unravel a haunting reality of life on the Stafford farm, where children faced unimaginable conditions and were forced into labor from a young age. Discover the disturbing incidents involving Brian in a chicken coop and the pervasive atmosphere of terror that left Victim 2 seeking solace in others. This episode sheds light on the relentless courage of these young individuals, who have bravely come forward to share their harrowing experiences.
Riddled with systemic failures, the Stafford household was a breeding ground for unchecked abuse, with Sonia Stafford at the helm. Despite numerous pleas for help, she turned a blind eye, allowing Brian's molestation of multiple victims to continue. Through extensive interviews at Susie's Place, we uncover a grim picture of neglect and the harsh dynamics between Brian and Victim 11. We also unearth the severity of the punitive point system and the harsh treatment meted out to Victim 4. By examining these narratives, we stress the critical need for justice and further investigation into the Stafford residence.
Amidst the darkness, we highlight the unwavering bravery of the survivors whose testimonies have paved the way for legal action. With the shadow of suspicion looming over Cody Stafford's alleged suicide, we call for anyone with information to step forward. Our episode is a somber reminder of the importance of community support and solidarity in seeking justice for these victims. As we continue this mission, stay tuned for more revelations and updates on our upcoming YouTube channel.
Send Us a Text- We can only reply on our Facebook Page if you would like to DM
Disclaimer: All defendants are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY in a court of law. All facts are alleged until a conviction!
69 South 69 South 69 South. 69 South 69 South.
Speaker 2:Welcome everyone to Podcast 69 South, where we discuss and discuss true crime, cold cases, current events and hot topics, along with our state of society today. This is your trigger warning. Our podcast content is produced for adult listeners, 18 years of age and older. We discuss situations that may be offensive and triggering to some listeners. Sit back, relax and enjoy Happy Friday everyone. Welcome back to another episode of 69 South Podcast. I am Chop, your host, and with me always is my beautiful co-host, julie.
Speaker 1:Hello.
Speaker 2:This is part two of the horrible, horrible probable cause affidavit from the Stafford case. I got to say I don't know about you, julie, but yesterday I was kind of glad that the time was running out and we had to stop. Some of this stuff is almost unbearable to read.
Speaker 2:It's disgusting, it's really disgusting the way these children were treated, but we got a lot to still go through, so we're going to jump right back into where we was yesterday, because these are two special episodes. We ended with a question, so once again, if you're new to this little series, julie is playing the state attorney and I am playing the lead investigator from Morgan County Sheriff's Department. Go back to the questions.
Speaker 1:What did she disclose about Brian and what happened with her?
Speaker 2:She disclosed an incident that took place in the chicken coop on the property. She talked about how Brian would touch her under her clothes all essential of her body. Clothes, all essential of her body. She also talked about how Brian would use lotion and put lotion on his hands and touch her private parts under her clothes in the chicken coop. And then she also talked about how she described the creamy stuff that would come out of his private parts while they were in the chicken coop together, Jesus.
Speaker 1:Did she describe that essentially, what sounded like he would masturbate in front of her in the chicken coop?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Wow, and did you get a sense from Victim 2's interview how many times this would happen with Brian?
Speaker 2:She had said pretty much any time that they were alone together he would do this to her.
Speaker 1:she had said pretty much any time that they were alone together, he would do this to her and did she make any statements in her disclosure? Something to the effect of it got so bad she started having other people go with her when she was out on the property.
Speaker 2:Yes, she did.
Speaker 1:Did she talk about an incident with the shower when she had been showering and she got out of the shower and Brian was standing there looking at her body?
Speaker 2:She did. She had talked about how she got out and Brian was there essentially just staring at her and looking at her.
Speaker 1:Did she talk about an incident where she saw something similar happening to one of her sisters?
Speaker 2:Unfortunately. Yes, she did.
Speaker 1:And what did she disclose? That she witnessed, she had disclosed that she came up.
Speaker 2:She did, and what did she disclose that she witnessed? She had disclosed that she came up. She was walking on the property, came up to the chicken coop and saw Brian down on his knees with her sister Victim 3, and he was touching her in her private parts as well and did.
Speaker 1:Victim 2, in her interview, give some sense of how old she was when the molest with brian started. Yes, she did. I suppose I can ask it a different way. Did she disclose or from your recollection of her suzy's place interviews, did you get the impression that the molest happened when she was under the age of 12?
Speaker 2:yes, she did yes.
Speaker 1:She said yes, she did Initially.
Speaker 2:When she found out about the younger children, she had apologized that it had happened to them there was a previous disclosures that we'll talk about later Apologized but told him that she could not turn Brian in, and so we've talked about victim two.
Speaker 1:Let's talk now about victim three. She is the second child that was removed from Brian and Sonia in May of 2024, correct?
Speaker 2:That's correct.
Speaker 1:Okay, and again, just to kind of orient the court where we are, victim. Three was the first group that was adopted with Indiana, the Indiana children in 2011,. Correct?
Speaker 2:That's correct.
Speaker 1:And I believe you had testified that victim three was about two years old when she was adopted by the Staffords.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, is she really the only child that we have that has been there since 2011 to 2024?
Speaker 2:That's correct.
Speaker 1:And so was victim three, also interviewed twice at Susie's place.
Speaker 2:Yes, she was.
Speaker 1:And the first time was immediately after they were removed, correct?
Speaker 2:That's correct.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then the second time. I think you had testified that victim two was interviewed in October of 2024 or November. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:Yes, october of 2024. Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, Victim three was interviewed the same day the second time.
Speaker 2:That's correct.
Speaker 1:Okay, and so you've talked through victim two's interview and her disclosure about sort of a day-to-day schedule, the punishment things that were in place at the farm. Did Victim 3 corroborate much of Victim 2's disclosure?
Speaker 2:She sure did.
Speaker 1:And did you learn any additional information about sort of the day-to-day that Victim 3 disclosed? That helped kind of give you a better picture of what was going on.
Speaker 2:I did?
Speaker 1:What did you learn? That gave you a better picture.
Speaker 2:She kind of walked through a little bit about how her day started. She disclosed that her day started at 5 am. She would get up, she'd start doing her chores. She had some that were, you know, taking care of the animals that were on the property, sweeping and mopping the floors, doing dishes. She specifically mentioned that the dishes that she would normally have to do were the dishes that were left over from Brian and Sonia from the night before that they didn't take care of themselves. Then she talked about how she was able to eat breakfast and then continue through her day with school work and other chores that she had as well.
Speaker 1:And so, combining victim two and victim three's interviews that were conducted, did you get the impression that the girls were made to work from the beginning of the day? When they were told to wake up out on the farm, they had their chores, they had to do, they had their schoolwork and then, on top of that, they basically were there to take care of whatever Sonia deemed necessary around the house.
Speaker 2:That is exactly the impression that I got around the house.
Speaker 1:That is exactly the impression that I got. Did it seem that they were all doing work and Sonia was doing?
Speaker 2:essentially nothing. That's also the impression that I got.
Speaker 1:Okay, and so did she talk about the food regimen, the schedule that the three of them were forced to follow.
Speaker 2:She did Her disclosure on the food schedule was consistent with the others. Follow she did Her disclosure on the food schedule was consistent with the others. She did mention that the only time that there would be like a deviation or change in the schedule was if there was other food that Sonia was going to throw out, so basically garbage. So they had talked about food that was going bad, food that was rotten. Essentially it could have been given to the farm animals or the girls were allowed to eat it.
Speaker 1:So did we learn from Victim 3's disclosure where the girls ate their meals?
Speaker 2:Yes, we did, and where's that? They had to eat in a separate location. So they started eating in the barn, which the barn has a storage room where their food, their sardines, their Roman and stuff is stored. They had. Well, she initially talked about how they ate in the room and later on had talked about how they just sat on the floor out in the main barn and would eat and they weren't eating in the main residence.
Speaker 1:And I might be jumping around a little bit, but during the course of this investigation did you find yourself go out to the property that the Staffords owned?
Speaker 2:Yes, I did.
Speaker 1:And was there a functional dining room in their home that had space for the children to eat?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:But from their interviews did you learn that they were not really allowed to use that space?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Did victim three in her interview talk about any injuries that she had sustained while in Sonia's care?
Speaker 2:She did. She had talked about some frostbite that she had sustained as a result of not being able to wear adequate clothing during the wintertime as a punishment.
Speaker 1:And I think you testified that during victim two's interview she had talked about they would be punished by only being allowed to wear their bra and underwear outside in cold temperatures. Was that consistent in Victim 3's interview as well?
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, she disclosed that to me as well.
Speaker 1:yes, and so I'm showing you what's been marked as States Exhibit 2. Is that the scars of the frostbite that was on Victim 3?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, and is that a picture that was taken by DCS, I think, on May 22nd of 2024?
Speaker 2:Yes, it was.
Speaker 1:Okay, and where are the scars?
Speaker 2:Just under the kind of you can see, just under the pant line where she's rolled them up for the picture. So mid-like shin just under the knee.
Speaker 1:And did she give you the impression that these were kind of a result of her farm boots rubbing against her legs?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, the court moves to admit Exhibit 2, and the state has now admitted that into evidence. So did she also talk about in Victim 3's interviews? Did she talk about the alarms on the bedroom doors that had came up in the investigation with the Oregon kids?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And what did Victim 3 disclose about those?
Speaker 2:She talked about the alarms being on the door and if they were to open the door it would send like a loud noise throughout the home. If they were to open the door, it would send like a loud noise throughout the home. Some people who know, essentially, if they were coming out of the room when they weren't supposed to be.
Speaker 1:And did victim three also talk about schooling and what was required of them when they were living with the Staffords?
Speaker 2:Yes, she did.
Speaker 1:Did she disclose anything that stood out to you and that we haven't already discussed about the schooling they had to do?
Speaker 2:No, that part was pretty consistent among the children with their schoolwork.
Speaker 1:And did you get the impression from victim three that the girls were rarely, if ever, allowed to leave the farm?
Speaker 2:Yes, I did.
Speaker 1:If they were to leave, were they always with Sonia.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Did victim three also talk about holidays, similarly to how Victim 2 talked about holidays? Yes, she did and what she disclosed consistent with Victim 2's disclosure. Yes it was. Was there anything that stood out to you that's different, that we haven't talked about?
Speaker 2:No, not to this point.
Speaker 1:No, not to this point and did victim three also between her two interviews talk to DCS or talk about DCS visits out to the Stafford farm and whether the children were required to lie or not tell the truth.
Speaker 2:Yes, she did.
Speaker 1:What did she?
Speaker 2:disclose about that. She disclosed consistently with the others that they were told to lie and receive threats of being separated, not being able to see their siblings anymore, and that Brian or Sonia could go to jail.
Speaker 1:And was that and was this a threat that was made again by Sonia to the kids?
Speaker 2:Yes, it was.
Speaker 1:Okay, did victim three disclose anything about Brian?
Speaker 2:She did. She had disclosed that Brian molested her also. Victim 5, victim 11, victim 6, victim 2, and Victim 4.
Speaker 1:Did you get the impression from Victim 3 that it was pretty well known in the family that this was something that Brian had done to most of her sisters? Yes, I did. Did she talk about how the molest had started with her when she was approximately seven years old?
Speaker 2:She did.
Speaker 1:What sort of molest actions did she disclose that happened with Brian?
Speaker 2:She talked about how Brian would touch her over the clothes on her breast. She also talked about an incident which he described as in the chicken yard, which we've determined was the chicken coop actually, where he had molested her, touched her private parts inside in the chicken coop.
Speaker 1:And was that the same incident that victim two had disclosed walking in on?
Speaker 2:Yes, it is.
Speaker 1:Did victim three ever disclose to Sonia what was going on with Brian?
Speaker 2:She did.
Speaker 1:And did she, through her interviews, explain what Sonia's reaction to the disclosure was?
Speaker 2:That was all pretty consistent too. She had apologized. She couldn't turn Brian in. In previously disclosures to Sonia, Sonia also accused him of lying about it, because Brian was confronted at one point about it and Brian essentially said that the girls were making it up. So Sonia took him at his or her word and told the girls that they were lying about all of it.
Speaker 1:And for clarification, I guess for the court. Did you get the impression throughout your investigation that all of the girls that lived there at one point or another went to Sonia and disclosed Brian had been molesting them or exposing himself to them, or and disclosed Brian had been molesting them or exposing himself to them, or something to that effect? Yes, and with Sonia throughout these disclosures with multiple children, was she not very receptive to those disclosures? Would that be a fair way to categorize it?
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Okay, and you mentioned that at one point she had told the girls that she accused them of lying.
Speaker 2:That's correct.
Speaker 1:Did Victim 3 talk about what Sonia's reaction was when she learned about Victim 11 and Brian's kind of quote-unquote relationship?
Speaker 2:She talked a little bit about it. Sonia was not happy when she discovered that Brian and victim 11 were in an actual relationship together.
Speaker 1:And I know we've talked about a lot of different kids and we have a lot of different timelines. But to kind of orient the court and make sure our record is clear, when victim 11 and Brian's relationship came out, was victim 11 still living with Brian and Sonia Stafford.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And do we know from your investigation that that relationship was disclosed around victim 11's 18th birthday, which would have been in October of last year?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, and do we know what ended up happening after Sonia learned about Brian and Victim 11's relationship?
Speaker 2:We do.
Speaker 1:And what ended up happening.
Speaker 2:Temporarily Victim 11 went and stayed with Brad in Bloomington and she stayed there for several months after Sonia first learned about their relationship between the two.
Speaker 1:And so you said initially, kind of stayed with Brad. Did victim 11 end up returning to the farm? Yes, she did Okay and so she was. As you testified previously, she was there in May of 2024 when DCS came out and started kind of their investigation.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So the third child that had been removed from Brian and Sonia. Victim four was she also interviewed at Susie's place two times.
Speaker 2:Yes, she was.
Speaker 1:And the first time was she interviewed pretty much immediately after removal? Yes, and then the second time, was it the second day as her older sisters?
Speaker 2:It was the second day as her older sisters.
Speaker 1:yes, and, just as a reminder, was victim four from the very last group of children that was adopted from Florida in 2015? That is correct. How old was she when she was adopted?
Speaker 2:Victim four would have been five when she was adopted when she was adopted.
Speaker 1:Victim four would have been five when she was adopted and were both of victim four's interviews at Susie's Place, the shortest interviews out of the girls?
Speaker 2:Yes, they were.
Speaker 1:What did she disclose about Sonia in her interviews?
Speaker 2:She had talked about the showers, that the shower schedule that they had, how they were only allowed to take a shower twice a week. She also talked about the button box, consistently with what the other disclosures were. She did mention that she would start off with 500 points each day and they would have to work out, work off. And then she would also talk about how Sonia would grab her by her face and squeeze her on her face. She would have scratches and stuff on her face.
Speaker 1:Did you get the impression from the older girls from victim two and victim three's interviews that victim four kind of got the worst treatment while they were living at the Stafford's home?
Speaker 2:Yes, I did.
Speaker 1:Her disclosure of starting off with 500 points. Was it your impression that victim four basically started off in the hole as the system was designed and that she was constantly having to work points?
Speaker 2:off. That's exactly the impression that I got.
Speaker 1:Did victim four have any injuries that we haven't talked about when they were removed from the Staffords on May 22nd 2024? I think you mentioned some scratches and maybe some bruising.
Speaker 2:She had some marks on her right thigh which I believe from her disclosure were wax from Sonia.
Speaker 1:And during Victim 4's second interview did she get emotional?
Speaker 2:She did.
Speaker 1:And did she tell the interviewer that there were things that she hadn't talked about, that she just really wasn't ready to disclose?
Speaker 2:She did. During the interview she started getting really emotional. The interviewer kind of brought it up, trying to see what was prompting the emotion, and that's when she said that there was things that had taken place and that she was essentially wasn't ready to talk about them yet Okay.
Speaker 1:So during the first round of interviews at Susie's Place, did it become apparent to you that there was going to be a necessity to go out to the house on 5600 Herbie Mont Road?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And did you obtain a search warrant to do that?
Speaker 2:That is correct.
Speaker 1:When was this executed.
Speaker 2:It was executed on the 23rd after the Suzy's Place interviews were. Well, I apologize, we obtained it during the search warrant. During the interviews I have, in between interviews, coordinated with Detective Shane Norris and Corporal Zach Dodson to see if they could start executing the search warrant while they were when they were granted. So I actually coordinated with them after our first Susie's Place interview and they went with uniformed deputies and secured the residence and started executing it. Once the interviews were concluded, I went to the residence and assisted in the remaining time of the execution of the search warrant.
Speaker 1:And so was it kind of around maybe not even 24 hours after the girls had been removed by DCS that you were able to get a warrant and start processing the house.
Speaker 2:That's correct.
Speaker 1:And what was located at the property that belonged to the staffers during the execution of the search warrant.
Speaker 2:We had found cameras in the barn that were consistent with some of the disclosures. We also found the classroom area that the girls had talked about in the barn. We found the room off the main open area of the barn that, like they disclosed, their food was kept. We found variety packs of sardines, the ramen noodles, different soups. We did find some of the chore list in the barn and then we also found the button box in an office that was also in the main barn as well.
Speaker 1:And the sardines and the ramen noodles and those items that you talked about. Those were consistent with the food schedule that the girls had disclosed that they had to follow for three years, correct?
Speaker 2:That is exactly correct.
Speaker 1:Okay, was there anything that the girls had disclosed that you were not able to locate?
Speaker 2:Yes, there was.
Speaker 1:What were you not able to locate? That was part of their disclosure.
Speaker 2:We were not able to find any of the paddles described.
Speaker 1:And I know that we admitted a picture of one of the paddles, how many were located or how many were supposed to be on the property, based on the girls' disclosure.
Speaker 2:They said somewhere between four and five.
Speaker 1:And we were not able to find any of those correct.
Speaker 2:We were not. The girls had talked about how they were some in the residence, how they kept some in the barn, various areas of the property, and there was none located anywhere.
Speaker 1:And did you get the impression from their disclosures that Sonia would keep a paddle pretty much on hand anywhere that she needed it to be?
Speaker 2:Yes, from their disclosures. Basically there was one that was nearby, just in the event that Sonia would need to grab one real quick.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Essentially we took two laptop computers. There was also an iPad. A cell phone that was collected inside the residence and then also collected was Sonia's cell phone from her person, brian's cell phone from his person, as well as Victim's 11 cell phone.
Speaker 1:And explain to the court what the thought process was for taking those devices those devices.
Speaker 2:We took them because there was a belief that there may be communications about the events that had took place, communications about DCS and things like that. That's what we were looking for.
Speaker 1:And we'll talk about this a bit later but were those devices that were seized processed at a later date at a high-tech crime lab by Levi Minnick?
Speaker 2:Yes, they were.
Speaker 1:So we mentioned the minor children that were probably the most recent group that had been placed with the Staffords but were not ultimately adopted. You had testified about minor child one, who was the oldest of the three. Did minor child one have a Susie's Place interview during this investigation?
Speaker 2:He did.
Speaker 1:And just sort of as a reminder, I think you said that he was placed in 2022 as well as 2023 with the Staffords. Is that correct that?
Speaker 2:is correct.
Speaker 1:Okay, and when approximately, was he interviewed?
Speaker 2:I believe he was interviewed in June of this year.
Speaker 1:And what did he disclose at Susie's Place or his behavior at Susie's Place that you thought was relevant to your investigation?
Speaker 2:Well, he had talked about being put in timeout. He essentially, if he were to get in trouble, he was isolated to like a table or a chair and would have to sit there essentially until he was told that he could get up. When the interviewer started talking about physical things that had taken place at the property, his demeanor completely changed. When the interview started, minor child one was very appropriate. He was a happy 10-year-old boy. But then when the questions about specific things that may or may not have happened on the farm and at the property, minor child one shielded himself. He had a breakdown. He lifted his knees up to his chest and kind of shielded his face and had a lot of emotion about being asked about the stuff.
Speaker 1:Did he tell the interviewer that he saw the other kids in trouble? But he or get in trouble, but he didn't want to talk about it and tell the interviewer what he saw.
Speaker 2:Yes, he did.
Speaker 1:And we've already mentioned that the two younger brothers were not of any age where they could have been interviewed correct?
Speaker 2:That's correct.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you mentioned that there were older kids that had previously been adopted who showed up on the scene of the day. The Staffords had their three girls removed. You specifically mentioned victim five. Was she interviewed during the investigation?
Speaker 2:She was.
Speaker 1:And when was she interviewed?
Speaker 2:She was interviewed on May 31st of this year.
Speaker 1:And just as a reminder to kind of orient the court, what was the group of kids that victim?
Speaker 2:five was adopted with she was in the fourth group, which would have been a group from Florida, and so or I'm sorry she was the first Florida group, so she would have been technically the third group from 2013.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, I apologize. So she was the group with victim seven, victim six and victim eight.
Speaker 2:That's correct.
Speaker 1:Okay, and how old was she when she was interviewed?
Speaker 2:She was 19 when she was interviewed.
Speaker 1:She was 19 when she was interviewed. Okay, what did Victim 5 disclose about how she was treated when she was living with the Staffords? That seemed pretty consistent with what you had already learned.
Speaker 2:She had talked about essentially the same things that the younger children had talked about. She had talked about the chore schedule, the food regimens, the schooling and things of that. It was all pretty consistent with the other disclosures.
Speaker 1:Did Victim 5 also mention that the adopted kids were typically not allowed to participate in Family Day, that Sonia would have their biological children there?
Speaker 2:Yes, she did.
Speaker 1:Did Victim 5 disclose anything about Brian Stafford?
Speaker 2:She did. She disclosed sexual things. That happened with Brian.
Speaker 1:And what did she disclose about when the abuse started and, kind of, when it ended?
Speaker 2:She said that the initial abuse with Brian started when she was about seven or eight and said it continued into her teens.
Speaker 1:Okay, and what would Brian do?
Speaker 2:She talked to us specifically about different incidents. She had talked about an incident where she was on a four-wheeler where he would touch her private parts over and under her clothes. She said that this happened quite often. She also talked about an incident in the workshop where he would touch her breast, her private parts under her clothes. And then she talked about another incident on a golf cart and this incident she had disclosed that it was over the clothing that he would touch her. But she essentially said she described it as sometimes when she would sit down on the four-wheeler or the golf cart, he would kind of cup his hand under her and make her sit on it and that's when some of the touching of her private parts would take place and make her sit on it and that's when some of the touching of her private parts would take place.
Speaker 2:One quick disclaimer listeners, when I'm saying private parts from a male or a female, I am specifically talking about the V or the P. It's just really hard for me to say that, talking about these children. So that's why I'm saying privates. Otherwise I will say breast or whatever. I just wanted to clarify that. So there's no cloudy areas right there. We're going to get right back to it.
Speaker 1:And did you get the impression from victim fives interview that it was sometimes over the clothes, sometimes under the clothes? But it would be a sort of variety of different things.
Speaker 2:Yes, I did.
Speaker 1:Okay. Did she also talk about how Brian would expose himself to her and her sisters?
Speaker 2:She did.
Speaker 1:What were some of the things that she disclosed?
Speaker 2:She would talk about how he would come out from using the restroom and essentially he would have his private parts just hanging out of his pants Various times on the property. He would just have his private part out to include in the home, Things like that. She also described one incident. When she described him as having an erection, she said, and the way she described it, it was because it was sticking out through his zipper.
Speaker 1:And did she also disclose that he had made like comments or various remarks about her body?
Speaker 2:She did. She talked about how he would kind of make whistling sounds at her and then he would make verbal specific comments about how good she looked.
Speaker 1:Did Victim 5 disclose seeing Brian touch any of her adopted sisters?
Speaker 2:She did.
Speaker 1:Which one?
Speaker 2:Victim 1.
Speaker 1:And what did Victim 5 see with Victim 1 and Brian?
Speaker 2:She said she kind of saw the same thing happen to her take place on the four-wheeler with the victim. And then she also talked about an incident in the barn. With this incident it was a little different. Victim 5 disclosed that she kind of or she saw Brian kind of tickling her stomach area and from there it went down to where she was touching Victim 1's private area.
Speaker 1:And did you get the impression that this was happening when there were other people around, that Brian was basically molesting Victim 1 in front of Victim 5 and potentially other kids too?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Did she also disclose that Brian would go through the girls' laundry basket and pick up their underwear?
Speaker 2:She did.
Speaker 1:Did victim five and her sisters ever tell Sonia about what was going on with Brian?
Speaker 2:They did. Victim five said that she had told Sonia every time something happened.
Speaker 1:And was there a time that stood out to her that they had disclosed to Sonia?
Speaker 2:There was. There was a time that they discussed it with her and essentially have the disclosure that they had a family meeting about it.
Speaker 1:Did she talk about how old she thought everyone was when they made a disclosure to Sonia?
Speaker 2:Between 10 and 13.
Speaker 1:was when they made a disclosure to Sonia Between 10 and 13. Okay, and so when we say 10 and 13, were some of the girls 10 and some of them 13?
Speaker 2:Yes, victim five and victim 11 were around 10. Victim one was 11. And then victim six, which was another child in the home, was 13.
Speaker 1:You had mentioned earlier that Sonia would sometimes have the reaction of accusing the girls of lying. Did Victim 5 ever disclose that was a reaction Sonia had when she had told her what was going on with Brian.
Speaker 2:Yes, she did.
Speaker 1:Okay. Did you get the impression from Victim 5 that she had told Sonia more than one time that this was going on with Brian?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And so did the abuse continue.
Speaker 2:Yes, it did.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then eventually did the younger girls victim two, victim three and victim four become victims?
Speaker 2:Yes, they did.
Speaker 1:Did they tell victim five what was happening with them? Victim two, victim three and victim four Did they disclose that to victim five?
Speaker 2:Yes, they did.
Speaker 1:Did she talk about that in her interview?
Speaker 2:Yes, she did.
Speaker 1:What did victim two tell victim five that Brian had done to her?
Speaker 2:Victim two had told victim five that he had put her or his hands up her clothes and touched her on her chest area.
Speaker 1:And what about victim three?
Speaker 2:Essentially the same thing. However, she talked about hands up the clothes, and then she mentioned the lotion on his hands and touching her private part with it. So disgusting this is hard to read, folks.
Speaker 1:So, and what was a detail that the girls disclosed in their first Susie's Place interviews? Victim two and victim three, correct, or that was a detail?
Speaker 2:Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then did victim four disclose anything to?
Speaker 2:victim five. Victim four had told victim five the same things were happening to her.
Speaker 1:Okay, victim four did not disclose anything with Brian in her Susie's Place interview, correct?
Speaker 2:She did not.
Speaker 1:Okay, and so you kind of mentioned that there was like a family meeting. Was there some sort of confrontation of sorts with Sonia and Brian resulting or, I guess, stemming from this?
Speaker 2:disclosure there was. They talked about how they had a big family meeting. They had Brian come in. Sonia and Brian had a private conversation away from the kids. At that point. That's when Brian essentially told Sonia that the kids were lying, that it didn't happen. So Sonia came in and told the girls that they were all lying, that he said that it didn't happen. So it didn't happen.
Speaker 1:Was there ever a confrontation where Brian admitted to everything?
Speaker 2:There was. There was another incident where they had had another family meeting. This was after the younger kids had disclosed to Sonia what was going on and Brian admitted to the things that were happening and apologized to the girls.
Speaker 1:And did Sonia again. In Victim 5's interview did we learn that Sonia told the girls not to tell anything about what Brian had done.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Did we also learn that Sonia told them to lie to DCS?
Speaker 2:Yes, we did.
Speaker 1:What was the reason that Sonia gave the Victim? 5 could remember.
Speaker 2:That they wanted to protect the family and she couldn't lose the farm.
Speaker 1:And did she make any specific threats? Did Sonia make any threats about what would happen if victim 5 did tell DCS?
Speaker 2:Yes, it was in the same line of the same disclosures as the other children, that they would be separated from their siblings, they would never see each other again, that Brian and Sonia would essentially go to jail.
Speaker 1:Did Victim 5 disclose anything about what happened with Sonia when Victim 5 was living on the property?
Speaker 2:Yes, she did.
Speaker 1:What did she disclose of physical abuse that Victim 5 had suffered at the hands of Sonia?
Speaker 2:She talked about different incidents where she'd have her hair pulled, a table dumped on her, she's had chairs thrown at her. She's also talked about separate instances. There was one incident in the laundry room when she was about 15 or 16 where she was drug into the laundry room and essentially she was strangled. She described Sonia taking both of her hands around her neck and Sonia would tell her the more you fight back, the more I'm going to do it. And during her disclosure she said she couldn't breathe. At one point Sonia let go and victim five had told her to stop choking her and said made the comment what do you mean this? And then reengaged, grabbing her by the throat, and continued and said that's not choking.
Speaker 1:And so, in addition to that incident in the laundry room, was there anything else that victim five had talked about happening with Sonia?
Speaker 2:She did. She talked about an incident where she slammed the door one of the doors in the house and Sonia chased her and, as a result, victim five suffered an injury. She had chipped one of her teeth and then Sonia described as pounding on her. She said she had bruises to her thighs, on her body from that.
Speaker 1:Did she witness anything that Sonia had done to any of the other kids in the house?
Speaker 2:She did. She talked about how she would see all of the girls get drug and pulled by their hair. She also talked about an incident when victim three was seven took her and threw her in the pond that was on the property. Victim five said that victim three had no idea how to swim but said that Sonia had drug her down there and threw her into the pond.
Speaker 1:Did the other girls have to retrieve victim three from the pond after that?
Speaker 2:Yes, they did.
Speaker 1:Did she talk about any incident involving one of the kids being thrown into a bathtub?
Speaker 2:She did. She talked about an incident with victim six. She said that she wasn't really sure what the exact circumstances were from it, but she said that she had saw Sonia drag victim six into the bathroom and throw her into the tub.
Speaker 1:Did she also talk about, in a way that was consistent with the other interviews that you'd done up to this point, or observed at this point, any sort of food deprivation that she was subjected to or that she witnessed at the Stafford home?
Speaker 2:She did and it was pretty in line and consistent with the same disclosures the other children had made as well.
Speaker 1:Did she also talk about the button box and what those buttons would mean? That was fairly consistent with the other girls.
Speaker 2:Yes, she did.
Speaker 1:Okay, did she also talk about the wax and the paddles that were used?
Speaker 2:Yes, she did?
Speaker 1:Did she ever say that she went without eating as a result of something and maybe extra buttons for points she hadn't worked off, or any situation where she was deprived of food?
Speaker 2:She did. I don't think she made specific disclosure on like a timeline of how, like if it were days, or how many meals she missed, but she did talk about being deprived of meals.
Speaker 1:Did she talk about a time where she tried to run away and was left out in the cold until 3 am?
Speaker 2:Yes, she did.
Speaker 1:Yes, she was. And throughout your investigation did you get the impression that Sonia had always used food as a means of control with all of the children, but that this specific regimen that victim two, three and four were on was, for whatever reason, unique to them?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, and what did victim five know about the food that victim two, three and four were supposed to eat?
Speaker 2:She talked about how they weren't allowed to have food but if it was if they were, it was sardines they might get a glass of milk or like a half a peanut butter sandwich. She talked about how the younger girls were skinny and looked underweight. Then she also talked about an incident where victim's four feet would swell up and she thinks that was because of the lack of nutrients that she wasn't getting. And she said Sonia would dump extra salt into the can of sardines that she would have to eat.
Speaker 1:And did Victim 5 also talk about Brian and Victim 11?
Speaker 2:Yes, she did.
Speaker 1:Was she aware of the quote-unquote relationship between Brian and Victim 11?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And how did she find out about that?
Speaker 2:She made comments during her interview that she found out from Brian and Victim 11 about the relationship.
Speaker 1:And what was Victim five's reaction to finding out that her adopted father and her sister went on a sexual relationship and that victim 11 was pregnant with his child?
Speaker 2:She said she felt like victim 11 had been groomed.
Speaker 1:And so, after victim five's interview did we also have an interview scheduled for Victim One?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, and when was she interviewed?
Speaker 2:She was interviewed the same day, May 31st of this year.
Speaker 1:And kind of orient the court as to what group Victim One came from.
Speaker 2:Victim One was the first group from Indiana.
Speaker 1:Okay, and so she was the first group that was adopted in 2011,. Correct?
Speaker 2:That's correct.
Speaker 1:How old was?
Speaker 2:victim, one when she was interviewed 19.
Speaker 1:And so what did she disclose about how she was treated when she was living with the Staffords that you found to be pretty consistent with the other girls' disclosures.
Speaker 2:She talked about the same types of things the regimen, the schedules, the sentences, the button box. She talked about during the interview how the highest amount she had to write was between 50 and 20,000 sentences in one day. Then she talked about pretty consistent with the other girls' disclosures and that if the sentences weren't done she'd be up all throughout the night trying to get them done before the next day.
Speaker 1:What did she disclose about Sonia?
Speaker 2:She talked about some physical abuse that she sustained from Sonia.
Speaker 1:Were there specific incidences that she could remember, that she gave disclosures about?
Speaker 2:She did. She said the very first incident was the day that or, I'm sorry, the night that she was formally adopted. She was slapped in the face by Sonia.
Speaker 1:And what were the circumstances that she said in her disclosure kind of led up to that?
Speaker 2:Victim. One talked about being emotional, said she was crying out for her mother you know her biological mother and Sonia smacked her in the face and said she's not your mother anymore, I'm your mother.
Speaker 1:And that was the night that victim one was adopted and welcomed into the Stafford home. Yes, it was.
Speaker 2:And how old was she? She was seven or eight.
Speaker 1:Was there another incident that she remembered? That was, I think she described as maybe the last day that she was at the barn.
Speaker 2:She did. What was that incident? She talked about being in the barn and there was an incident with Sonia and described her being choked and strangled by Sonia. She said during the incident she could see black spots, she felt her legs going weak. She tried to kick and fight. She said she doesn't remember how her brother, victim 10, was able to stop it, but just remembers victim 10 helping make that incident stop.
Speaker 1:And in her description of being strangled did she describe that Sonia was applying pressure externally to her throat and that she was unable to breathe?
Speaker 2:Yes, she did.
Speaker 1:Okay, and you mentioned that Victim 10 had to kind of intervene and get her off of Victim 1, correct?
Speaker 2:That's correct.
Speaker 1:Was there another time that Victim 1 could remember something happening with Sonia specifically?
Speaker 2:Yes, she said that there was an incident where she didn't feed one of the guinea pigs and Sonia threw a chair at her and it resulted in a bruise on her leg.
Speaker 1:And did she give any sort of time frame of when that was? Did she recall how old she was or when that may have happened?
Speaker 2:I don't recall if she had said a specific date on when that happened, just that it had happened.
Speaker 1:Okay, was there also an incident with nail polish that she had talked about?
Speaker 2:There was. They had apparently been given permission to all wear nail polish I believe it was maybe for Victim Six's birthday or something like that. So her favorite color was red. So she picked red nail polish. While they were doing their nails she had disclosed that she had spilled the nail polish. Sonia got upset and she talked about how she had some cuts on her hands from the guinea pigs she was taking care of. So sonia would take the hand sanitizer and pour it into these open scratches on her hands and told victim one she needed to stop being a whore did she eventually dump the nail polish on victim one's head?
Speaker 2:yes, she did did.
Speaker 1:She also did victim one. Give you a picture, or at least, in her disclosure, provide a picture of some of the emotional or verbal abuse that Sonia would inflict.
Speaker 2:She did Victim one would talk about how Sonia would call her fat. She would tell her that her body was ugly. She said that Sonia would also tell her that she never wanted to adopt victim one.
Speaker 1:She never wanted to adopt victim one and the calling her fat. Does that kind of become important later when talking about the three girls victim two, three and four with their weight gain? That has happened after their removal.
Speaker 2:It does.
Speaker 1:Okay, and I know I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but in victim four's current state has victim four expressed concern about what's going to happen if she eats and if she gains weight. Does she seem concerned about that she?
Speaker 2:is.
Speaker 1:And do you in your review of everything? Does that seem to be a result of Sonia's conditioning?
Speaker 2:Yes, it does.
Speaker 1:So jumping back to victim one did she ever talk about witnessing any physical?
Speaker 2:abuse while she was there. She did.
Speaker 1:And was that any thing that happened to her younger sisters or other kids? She did, and was that anything that happened to her younger sisters or other kids? What did she see?
Speaker 2:She talked about the younger girls, seeing them get their wax. She would talk about how Sonia would pick up the girls by their shirts. Then she also had talked about how she saw Sonia slapping the girls.
Speaker 1:And did victim one ever talk anything about neglect for food deprivation or anything of that? Would corroborate with what the other girls had said.
Speaker 2:She did.
Speaker 1:What did victim one disclose?
Speaker 2:It was along the same lines of the same punishment, the same things being done how they were supposed to be done. They would be withheld food. During her interview, she also disclosed that the longest time she went out without food was five days.
Speaker 1:What did victim one disclose about Brian?
Speaker 2:She disclosed that there was a sexual abuse that occurred with Brian.
Speaker 1:What did she disclose? Well, actually did she talk about molest or sexual abuse that happened with him on more than one occasion.
Speaker 2:She did.
Speaker 1:What was the first time that she remembered something happening with Brian?
Speaker 2:The first time she remembered something happening she was about 10 years old. She had gotten in trouble by Sonia, so she was emotionally and crying. Brian, from her disclosure, kind of swooped in, offered her a hug and told, said I have something to show you that will make you feel better. At that point Brian started touching victim one she disclosed that she stated started grabbing her butt at that incident.
Speaker 1:And in her disclosure did she say that that was the first incident. After the first incident it had stopped.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay. Did she also say that Brian had told her this was what normal dads and daughters do?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:After that first incident, did she talk about any times where Brian would expose himself to her or her sisters?
Speaker 2:Yes, she did.
Speaker 1:Did you get the impression that happened more than one time?
Speaker 2:Yes, I did.
Speaker 1:Okay impression that happened more than one time? Yes, I did Okay and were her disclosures consistent with that?
Speaker 2:of victim five. Yes, it was.
Speaker 1:Okay, was there a time where it happened with victim five, victim one and victim six all in their rooms?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, and from her disclosure was victim one approximately 10 years old.
Speaker 2:Yes, she was?
Speaker 1:Did she also disclose that Brian exposed himself in the pole barn at various times?
Speaker 2:Yes, she did.
Speaker 1:Was there a time that victim one talked about where she went to split wood with Brian?
Speaker 2:Yes, she did.
Speaker 1:What did she disclose about that incident and how old was she?
Speaker 2:She was 12 years old at that time. She disclosed that she and Brian went to go split some wood. She said that she had stopped to get food at Burger King and had pulled off to where they were where they were going to be splitting wood at. She talked about Brian touching her on various parts of her body. She also talks about how Brian would make comments about how, when she turned 18, she was going to be his girlfriend. She disclosed that Brian penetrated her private parts with his fingers, and then she also talked about when he did. She felt wiggling around from his fingers and then she said that she immediately started bleeding.
Speaker 1:And did they end up going back to the farm without splitting any wood after victim one started to bleed?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Did any sort of disclosure happen with Sonia, or did Sonia have any explanation for why victim one started to bleed? Yes, did any sort of disclosure happen with Sonia, or did Sonia have any explanation for why victim one was bleeding she?
Speaker 2:did. They had a conversation with Sonia about it and Sonia told victim one that essentially she had just started her menstrual cycle. And victim one knew that that wasn't the case. She had disclosed that her first menstrual cycle was when she was 10. So that would have been two years prior to this incident.
Speaker 1:And I think you had mentioned that Brian had made comments to victim one before and about when she turned 18, he was going to she was going to be Brian's girlfriend. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And what was victim one's reaction to that?
Speaker 2:She told Brian that that was not going to be the case.
Speaker 1:Good for her. So now we just want to sum up what we've went through.
Speaker 2:That's a lot of people and a lot of people. We've had a lot of people wanting this raw, so that's why we're giving it to you raw and we are kind of even softening some of the blows a little bit for you. But I mean just to sum up some of the things, it's obvious that Sonia knew what was going on. It was getting reported to her. She knew exactly what was going on. She's a sick bitch. She is sick AF. She's a sick bitch, she is sick AF.
Speaker 1:And to I mean it's like she had a power trip and it's hard for me to figure out whether she was jealous or you think she Hell yeah, she was jealous, she hated these little girls and she wanted to beat them and abuse them and slave them away on her farm, all the while knowing that her husband's taking sexual advantage of him.
Speaker 1:That is just insane, she needs to be charged with sexual molestation just as him in my eyes, because you know what she knew about it. She didn't report it, she just kept covering it up. So I think that should be a charge on her, because she ain't gotten no charges like that.
Speaker 2:But come on, I mean to me, if you know about all this sexual molestation and you know touching private parts as they were being touched, just like if you're with somebody that robs a bank, or you're with somebody when somebody else murders somebody, if she knew that shit was going on. When somebody else murders somebody, if she knew that shit was going on, absolutely she should be charged with at least conspiracy to commit sexual misconduct, conspiracy to commit molestation, something. And when we were at the press conference there was people that asked, there was reporters that asked if they thought there was any more charges that could be drummed up and they could not rule that out. So we can only hope and pray that out of this probable cause affidavit, maybe when the prosecutors look at it more, that there are going to be more charges dropped on this. We can only hope.
Speaker 1:Not dropped as in go away. He means dropped as in new charges coming up.
Speaker 2:Like a hammer dropped. Like a hammer on their asses is what I mean. Dropped by.
Speaker 1:And they still believe that they have victims into the early 90s and they believe that they have victims who they haven't even spoke to, victims that they don't even know, witnesses that they haven't spoke to help. If they know anything, if they've seen anything, they need to go say something to these investigators to get justice for these kids who had to live through this.
Speaker 2:Absolutely we also, julie, made a point to ask the prosecutors and the sheriff detective if there was any thoughts or any interest in reopening the case of Cody Stafford who committed suicide supposedly allegedly at the foot of Brian and Sonia Stafford's bed. They couldn't really comment on that yet. They hadn't got too much information on that yet, just what the kids had told him in their interviews. But to my understanding most of those adopted children and foster children. They weren't around when.
Speaker 2:Cody had committed suicide, and I want to tell you, if anybody out there knows anything that's more than what this suicide is. Please contact 69 South and give us the information. We want to dig into this and we want to get justice for him too, because we have had people reach out and tell us that we need to go deeper into this. Well, going deeper means we need some help from our listeners.
Speaker 1:And another thing I thought was odd in one of our interviews that we have done, the stories have changed on how Cody has committed suicide and that can only be because Brian and Sonia are telling different stories.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:So that makes me also think that something else is going on a little bit deeper.
Speaker 2:We never reveal our sources and your information, your names and any information is saved with us. We just want the truth. We just want justice for everybody involved. Unfortunately, we have to wrap this episode up. This is basically pretty close to two-thirds of the probable cause affidavit that we're going to bring to you, so there will be another episode of the last of the probable cause. We thank you for tuning in. If you love what you've heard, don't forget to download our podcast. Your downloads is what truly matters to help us grow. Streams alone won't do it. You can find us on all your favorite platforms, including Apple Podcasts, spotify, amazon Music Podcast, indexed YouTube, iheartradio Podcast, addict Podchaser Pocket Cast.
Speaker 1:Deezer, listen, notes, player, fm, whatever, whatever. There's so many of them.
Speaker 2:There's a bunch of shit I ain't even heard of. We also are going to have a new YouTube channel. We just got enough followers. Thank you for everybody that was involved in following us. We are so excited to get our youtube channel fired up. It is going to be on fire. You'll finally get to put the faces. Until next time, we hope you have a good day. Good evening, outro Music.
